The confusion stems from the symptoms of a failing transmission, and a failing torque converter is very similar and linked. Privacy Statement - That could be within the margin of error for the sensor. He wondered if something internal may be damaged and the tow tune showed it up not allowing the torque converter to unlock soon enough which caused the bog down issue. As long as this mechanical lockup remains fully engaged, there is no slip, which improves fuel economy (typically by around 4% at cruising speeds) and provides throttle response and engine braking comparable to a vehicle with a manual gearbox. (At this point, an updated, expanded edition wouldnt go amiss, given all the subsequent development in CVTs and automatics with five or more speeds.). This creates the greatest speed difference between the turbine and the impeller and therefore the maximum torque multiplication. Some vehicles have a transmission temperature indicator that will let you know when your car's transmission is overheating. The DG series transmissions obtained their indirect ratios with a compound planetary gearset. 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Turbine speed tends to fall behind impeller speed any time load increases (for example, when going up a steep grade) and an increase in engine speed doesnt immediately produce a corresponding increase in turbine speed. *. the only readings i got was for all the electronically controlled aod. Remember, you don't experience either symptom unless you have the wrong amount of fluid or the wrong fluid in the transmission. I cant imagine the hours of work which you must have put into understanding these various transmissions, to say nothing of writing up a description that a simpleton like me could (mostly) understand. . Your IP: This is why a disc clutch must be disengaged or the transmission shifted to neutral whenever the vehicle stops. Torque converter seals can get damaged for several reasons. Actual shows 640 rpm in drive with the brake on. Diagnosing a potential Torque Converter problem with a Scan tool. Remember, a torque converter is a coupler between the engine and transmission. But Ive never heard of anyone going that route. In the event we receive any compensation and/or other valuable consideration for any other content presented on this website, the nature of that compensation or consideration will be disclosed as part of the applicable content and/or otherwise adjacent to it. Torque Converters - Unlocking The Secrets - Car Craft Magazine - MotorTrend 10r80 Cars on the Dyno - TCC lock S or D - Mustang6G Once the clutch plate is fully engaged against the pressure plate, both must turn together at the same speed. abs, do you have any recommendations on how to troubleshoot a failing torque converter using ForScan? They normally expire after about one year. (Google, DoubleClick, YouTube, and other related marks and logos are trademarks of Google LLC. Torque Converter slippage | PowerStrokeArmy The trans temp was never above 160 degrees. Desired is what the PCM is commanding and Actual is how much it is actually slipping measured in RPM. Since the 1940s, automakers have come up with a variety of strategies for reducing or eliminating that slip, including series parallel split torque transmissions and different types of converter lockup clutches. These a11y cookies normally expire after about seven days, but are removed immediately if you restore the applicable settings to their default values. There are several ways to arrange such a clutch, but the common object is to create a mechanical connection between the engine and the transmission input shaft (which otherwise is driven by the fluid clutchs turbine(s)). In my limited experience, a failing converter in this transmission will start to throw off a lot of black carbon and cause the fluid to rapidly darken. Its weird its not noticable as even a new soft engaging lock up but it acts somewhat like it has one. T43 Torque Converter Desired Slip. You must be at least 18 to comment. For more information about Google advertising, see the "Advertising" section of their Google Privacy & Terms site. When coasting, the turbine overruns the impeller, which causes slippage, but relatively little braking effect. A converter that might have a stall speed of 5,000 rpm for a pure drag car would be completely miserable on the street. Think of it this way, a well built converter, 10" may slip 4-5%, if yours slips 6-7% higher, you are baking the fluid, cooking the band, and compromising the clutches, and giving up mph and ET. Your car shudders almost as if it's caught the flu and has a temperature. 4. I have read and accepted the Privacy Policy In fact, Cadillacs chief engineer ordered an early Daimler Double Six with the Wilson and Laurence Pomeroys Fluid Flywheel for evaluation purposes. 4. There may be more than one of these cookies, particularly if you access several password-protected posts with different passwords. (author diagram). When the two problems are combined, it could mean your torque converter is failing. For a drag-race car, the cost of this additional slippage is worth the price, but for a street car it creates other problems. Happens roughly 1-3 times in 30 mile drive at speeds of up to 60mph, and much more frequent at highway speeds (70+). Input output shaft readings are almost exactly the same when driving. With the clutch engaged, Ultramatic also transmitted some drivetrain vibration that the torque converter would otherwise have absorbed. Your first course of action, if you notice yourtransmission or torque converter has started to slip or shudder is checking your fluid level. Although torque converters are ideal launch devices for. Signs of a Failing Torque Converter [and How to Fix it!] It does drove different than a lock up. I had "guessed" that it could have been a valve body issue when trying to diagnose on my own and I replaced that to no avail. Part 3 of 3 High Performance Academy Sonnax and SIU - Mega Torque. What to Do to Fix Slipping or Shuddering. In drive at 0 speed TCD should read 1020 rpm and TCA should be Engine RPM - With automated hydraulic operation and combinations of brakes and clutches, it was possible to get the same results more efficiently. Last fall, the external filter disintegrated and clogged up the cooler. With the torque slip PID on the DashDAQ. (For this cookie, "xx" will be a cryptographic hash.) Also, engaging a lockup clutch will prevent a torque converter from multiplying torque. Failing Torque Converter Clutch with Slippage - Ford Flex VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. (not Diameter) Well done and thank you; this must have been an enormous amount of work. Anyway, I downloaded FORscan on my laptop and loaded several pids for the transmission. Think of a lock TC as the clutches in your tranny. The car became basically undriveable. The turbine drives the front annulus through the input shaft (medium blue). I wouldn't worry about it, but I'm not familiar with your specific transmission. I purchased my car 3 weeks ago from a new car dealership.. Hence, you've commanded your torque converter every time your car shifted gears. Its free and only takes a minute, Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB Limited. There was also a kickdown mechanism that allowed the driver to disengage the clutch at road speeds between 13 and 56 mph (21 and 90 km/h) by flooring the accelerator, allowing the torque converter to again multiply torque. But the catch is that this torque multiplication doesn't last very long. The mount on the transmission side (under the battery) was severely damaged, the rubber legs inside the bushing were torn through and was allowing a lot of engine movement. That's because torque converters transfer the power your car engine makes to the transmission in your car. Torque converter slip question I was monitoring some Torque converter params for my 4R55E with my in dash scantool. Each PayPal payment or donation button may also incorporate a tracking pixel called "pixel.gif" (which loads from paypalobjects.com). You only monitor it when the converter is locked. Terms of Service - So far the bogging down hasn't happened since last week. You also need to move forward with viable options that will help you get your torque converter fixed. In this installment of Ate Up With Motor, we take a look at how GM, Ford, Chrysler, Packard, and Studebaker have approached this slippery problem from 1949 through the late eighties. Overdrive ratios drive the torque converter at speeds generally below normal coupling speed, creating increased slippage and heat, which is unacceptable. However, the cookie may remain on your device for as long as the settings of your browser (or other user agent) permit. In the early Studebaker Automatic Drive (Borg-Warner DG) transmission, the flywheel drives the torque converter impeller, front pump, and lockup clutch pressure plate (red). The GM team that designed Hydra-Matic was certainly familiar with the Wilson preselector. (For each of these cookies, "xx" will be a cryptographic hash.) sir im having an issue with my 93 f150 aod. With no slip at all. But once they are damaged, you will experience fluid leaks. The vehicle suffered a torque converter failure at around 140k miles. What to Do to Fix Your Contaminated Transmission Fluid. There are a number of posts referencing this issue, look for the wires coming out from under the intake manifold behind the elbow that contains the coolant thermostat. There is more demand in today's market for increased comfort and safety in cars. A 5 percent slippage factor means that if the impeller is spinning 3,000 rpm, the turbine is only spinning 2,850, or 5 percent slower. As youll see if you look at the first one, the original iteration had three speeds forward and one reverse, for which it requires four epicyclic gearsets. (If you need to review or change these settings after you accept, you can do so from the Privacy Tools page.) It is the lack of fluid that causes overheating, slipping, or shuddering. by Silver Flex SEL. It's also important not to undersell converter weight as a contributing factor to maximizing acceleration. I checked for codes and had none that explained why it happened. Submitting a comment signifies your acceptance of our Comment Policy please read it first! Doesn't seem to coincide with vehicle shifting though. Your email address will not be published. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. One of the fundamental differences between a fluid clutch (a fluid coupling or torque converter) and a mechanical plate clutch is slippage. For comparison, a four-speed Wilson pre-selector has four planetary gearsets, four sets of brake bands, and a cone clutch, which is a lot of pieces. Stall speed is measured in the car by applying the brakes and revving the engine in First gear against the brakes. About Us - The result will be every car will have efficient, smooth, and comfortable rides. I havent studied the Wilson preselectors in any great detail, but if youre curious, the applicable U.S. patents are US1404675 and US1796904. There are tried and true methods for fixing the five common torque converter issues. (We have now DISCONTINUED our use of Google Analytics tracking on this website; see the "Online Tracking" section of the Privacy Policy for more information.) In this schematic of a basic three-element torque converter with lockup clutch, the torus cover, lockup clutch pressure plate, and impeller (red) all rotate with the engine flywheel. I always thought it wasn't supposed to go over 10. Privacy Policy. Archive - Tuning. Packard achieved that goal by treating the engagement of the lockup clutch like an automatic gear change. With the advent of overdrive automatic transmissions like the TH200-4R, the TH700-R4/4L60E, the massive 4L80E, the Ford AOD, and all the rest, the new-car companies were striving for improved fuel economy using overdrive. (These cookies are not usually set for administrative users, since comments they submit while logged in are associated with their user ID number and user profile information rather than a manually entered name and email address.). Keep reading to find out these common torque converter problems and how to fix them. Since taking all the of the steps outlined above, I can confirm that the transmission has been running properly and the clutch working as expected. If you correctly enter the password, the site saves this cookie on your device to allow you access to the password-protected post or page. The space ahead of the clutch formed a hydraulic cylinder containing an annular steel piston that acted as a pressure plate. We were wrong. A torque converter clutch (TCC) is an important element of automatic transmissions because it affects fuel economy and driveability. Okay, so it sounds like you were able to identify a potential root cause. One is turned by the enginge. but the question is when i put my buddys obd code finder on it. A manufacturer's torque-converter rating is generally expressed as an rpm range. The Vimeo Cookie Policy does not currently disclose the normal durations of the cookies and similar technologies the Vimeo platform uses, but it appears that some may remain in your browser (or other user agent) for as long as your settings permit. All site content Copyright 2007-var year=new Date(); year=year.getYear(); if (year<1900) year+=1900; document.write(year); FordFlex.net FordFlex.net is in no way affiliated with Ford Motor Company. My SunCoast converter has a little slip. Many of the other listed cookies are associated with the Google Analytics service, the Google AdSense advertising service, and/or other Google advertising and measurement products, which are subject to the Google Privacy Policy; see their "How Google uses information from sites or apps that use our services" page, the "Information for Visitors of Sites and Apps Using Google Analytics" section of the Google Analytics "Safeguarding your data" help page, the "Technologies" section of their Google Privacy & Terms site, and the "Our advertising and measurement cookies" section of the Google Business Data Responsibility site (which includes a detailed list of cookies associated with Google advertising and measurement products) for more information. Clutch material, bearing and bushing pieces, and a shiny metal flake appearance will be an indicator that things are coming apart inside. I would suggest starting with the transmission upper mount and also a transmission fluid drain and fill. I never saw a problem with the converter, it never went over 3 to 4 RPM slippage at WOT with it locked. U.S. Pat. Torque Converter Slip Measurement / Diagnosis | Ford Explorer - Ford Wilson pre-selectors were pretty well established technology, although not common, by the late 30s. I have yet to read this monumental work in depth. (These cookies may not be set at all for administrative users unless they access the publicly visible portions of the website and/or update their consent settings e.g., by accepting an updated version of the Privacy Policy. This website is using a security service to protect itself from online attacks. Performance & security by Cloudflare. The turbine has a spline that attaches to the transmission input shaft, which connects to the internal parts of the transmission to shift gears and provide power to the wheels. One or more wp-saving-post cookies may be set while creating and/or editing posts or pages, to help manage version control and the autosave feature; these cookies normally expire after about 24 hours. Sure, there's all kind of talk about stall speed, slippage, and lockup features, but some gearheads secretly believe there's as much voodoo to a torque converter as there is science. JavaScript is disabled. If your going over ten your gonna need a new torque converter fairly soon..depends how you drive.. my converter started off slipping at about 13 on the 275 and ended up wearing out pretty quick and it began slipping like 45-50 on the gauge. Third, make sure that your engine is running right because a transmission chuggle can be caused by many things. It's all about creating an overall tuned package that complements the rest of your car. If you shop at Amazon.com (for anything), use this link to support FordFlex.net! The drive fan moves air across the blades of the driven fan (which is turned off). I think you probably have some time as long as you dont pound on it. :whs: I was seeing 200-300 on the 310 with the stock converter but still felt really strong! To serve up a little enlightenment, let's take a spin through the torque-converter world and make some sense out of all the superstition. The torque converter is made up of five parts: The stator is called the middleman. Locking the converter with a scan tool bypasses the tune and verifies everything mechanical is in order. That drum is connected via overrunning clutch (fuchsia) to the rear sun gear (purple), which is also attached to the inner race of a second overrunning clutch (also fuchsia). The PYPF cookie normally expires in approximately four weeks, the 01A1 cookie in approximately one year. Introduced for the 1950 model year, Studebakers Automatic Drive was developed in partnership with Borg-Warner and was more broadly known as the DG series, after the Borg-Warner Detroit Gear Division that did much of the development work. ), These first-party cookies are used to manage user logins and certain other administrative functions of the WordPress content management system, e.g., post editing. To learn more about how Google may use information collected by the Google Analytics service, see their "How Google uses information from sites or apps that use our services" page, the "Information for Visitors of Sites and Apps Using Google Analytics" section of the Google Analytics "Safeguarding your data" help page, and the Google Privacy Policy. California residents also have the Right to Opt-Out of the sale of their personal information see the Do Not Sell My Personal Information page. Post Even though Dyno numbers are just a number, For reference my 2018 Gen3 made 400rwhp/390rwtq stock with 5k miles on a Dynojet,, It hit the speed limiter at 6700. In this design, the two basic components in the fluid coupling are the impeller blades (the drive side), which are connected to the engine, and the turbine blades (the driven member), which are splined to the input shaft of the transmission. There are several actions that could trigger this block including submitting a certain word or phrase, a SQL command or malformed data. Another important part of the torque converter and stall-speed equation is converter diameter. The fluid did not look dirty. This will cause damage to both the transmission and the converter. Off.).) Wallace Racing BACK to Auto Math. You usually notice your car shuddering because itfeels like it's vibrating. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Lockup clutches were used in some nonautomotive torque converters before World War II, but the first regular-production automotive application was the 1949 Packard Ultramatic Drive, which established a model for subsequent transmission designs. If you are experiencing shuddering, also check your engine mounts. The cookies normally expire in about 10 days, and are not set at all if you do not access any password-protected content. 91.234.33.200 if I'm seeing "desired TC slip" of 1020rpm at all times wouldnt that pretty much guarantee the TC would never lock? The information below will outline the most common torque converter issues and their solutions. by SirHandyMan Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:54 pm, Post That includes the advanced manufacturing technology being used in optimizing torque converters. * Various services, specials, or coupon offers are available at participating locations only. Torque Converter Clutch Low Slip Speed Detection and Control When you have contaminated transmission fluid that has bits of this and that in it This is an indication that you have bigger problems inside the converter or transmission. If your car transmission keeps overheating, you may also notice your transmission starts to act funny, or it may even go into fail date and stay in one gear and not shift at all. It took the addition of a small device called the stator to increase the efficiency of the fluid coupling and transform it into a torque converter. To learn more about what information the YouTube platform and other Google services may collect through and/or in connection with embedded video players and how Google may use that information, see their "How Google uses information from sites or apps that use our services" page and the Google Privacy Policy. The impeller pump receives the transmission fluid once it's delivered. This is not an official website of any automaker or automotive brand! The action you just performed triggered the security solution. Ive been troubleshooting a low RPM with light acceleration shudder on my 2011 EcoBoost Flex. If governor pressure dropped below that threshold, the clutch would disengage. Forum. This is a session cookie that verifies that the user has entered valid user credentials pending receipt of the correct authentication code; the cookie normally expires when the user closes their browser (or other user agent). mroberthowell 4 yr. ago Thank you so much! of course it could be logging falsely No, that just means its not locking, or the pid isn't reading right. This is why lifting off the throttle in a car with a fluid coupling or torque converter can feel almost like shifting into neutral. But now with the Spartan 275 I am seeing 18.24 at WOT with the converter locked. Failing Torque Converter Clutch with Slippage - Could be your TCC Solenoid, Re: Failing Torque Converter Clutch with Slippage - Could be your TCC Solenoid, https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.co 733.0.html.
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